Resource - ZU Old Gens Hub - ADV Aipom ban #337 (2024)

After gaining a possibly unhealthy obsession with ADV ZU, and playing it in Classic for a bit, I've got a few noms as well as thoughts about the Meta.

Rises:

New/UR -> A Rank

I joined right as Aipom dropped, as so far it's been nothing but spectacular. While it has competition with other Normal Spammers, it stands right beside them, if not then above. While it does lose out on Quick attack and a Flying Typing from Taillow, and Bulk and versatility from Castform, it makes this up with power to match Castform, Speed to match Taillow, and pure utility from Baton Pass. This combination makes Aipom a fantastic lead, with with it able to steamroll the opposing lead with its power, or Baton Pass out at any sign of trouble.

While the latter 2 use Endure, Aipom has the capability of limiting Snorunt to 1 Layer of Spikes, and forcing Cyndaquil to Endure or swap, allowing Aipom to get a free Baton Pass in into one of its teammates. And it isn't limited to just being a lead, or useless after being used as one. The vast majority of the meta is outsped and either OHKOed or stomped after a bit of chip, making it a dangerous wallbreaker and cleaner.

This replay is a great example of how CB Aipom can turn seemingly even games into sweeps. Once all the Normal Resists were removed Aipom simply won the game. Ignore the lead swap, at the time I was unaware of the Growlithe Calc at the time. I didn't BP as I didn't want to pass the Attack drop.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen3nu-1327630810

As shown, Aipom does take a ton of recoil, but the fact of the matter is that without a Normal resist it plows through Pokemon after Pokemon without a second thought. And while those aformentioned Normal resists are great, they aren't perfect, as they greatly fear Brick Break.

While it hardly mows them down, it does do considerable damage, something especially notable to the ones without Reliable Recovery. However, to be fair not going for Double Edge is risky for Aipom as Brick Break is easier to stomach. Thus, an almost perfect solution to this perdicament has been found.

SubPunch Aipom acts as a perfect workaround to the various Normal Resists, while also being a dangerous Pokemon in its own right.

As shown, our best Normal Counters are ground to dust by Focus Punch + Brick Break. Only Lileep stands a chance against it, but the damage remains huge. And the best part about this is that Aipom doesn't need to instantly reveal which set it's running, making countering it even harder.

However, SubPunch Aipom isn't the perfect workaround to CB Aipom's problems. It oftentimes just doesn't nearly as hard as CB Aipom, leading to Pokemon like Cubone suddenly becoming good Aipom checks, while Aipom loses any hope of breaking through walls such as Bayleef and Koffing.

Thus Aipom does have several flaws that keep it in A Tier. As shown it really wants to have the power of Band but at the same time is often turned into fodder by Normal resists if it perdicts wrong or after it gets a KO. SubPunch alleviates this issue but leads it to be walled by far more Pokemon. There is also the issue of the Double Edge Recoil, as oftentimes it simply can't handle the sheer amount of damage it dishes out. However, this doesn't take away from just how good Aipom is overall. It has its struggles, but its Power, Speed and Versatility makes it a real threat in ADV ZU.

This will likely be my most contraversial nomination, but I say

A Rank -> S Rank

Substitute Rhyhorn is possibly the most dangerous Pokemon in the Meta right now. With the omnipresence of Taillow, Aipom, and other Normal Types, Substitute Rhyhorn is a great counter to these Double Edge Spammers. However, unlike its contemporaries, Nosepass, Mangemite, and Aron, Rhyhorn not only forces these threats out, but functions as a huge offensive threat in its own right. With Substitute and the great QuakeSlide Combo, Rhyhorn forces the oppodent on the defensive, and oftentimes is guarantee a KO for every time it successfully Blocks a Double Edge. It can't be understated how powerful its ability to not only defend against against Normal Spam, but to completely 180 the momentum of the game. With an easy entry in the form of the largest metagame threats, while also being just as, if not more, threatening once on the field, I believe Rhyhorn is truly worthy of an S Rank.

Now I did go on about how Aipom has a workaround set for Rhyhorn, and other threats such as Taillow and Castform do have coverage for Rhyhorn, but on a game-to-game basis they usually have to go for Double Edge in order to avoid getting KOed in return. This 50/50 is exceptionally risky, and excluding SubPunch Aipom the Normals are put in a perdiction for their lives. And there is still nothing stopping Rhyhorn from setting up a Sub after a KO, making many losses on your side simply trades.

And its not just limited to checking Normals. Significant Poison types such as Grimer are turned into complete setup fodder with Substitute and SD. Dustox could Toxic Rhyhorn but at the cost of likely being KOed.

While it is exceptionally hard to switch into, it is important to mention Standard Substitute Rhyhorn's few Chekcs. These are mostly bulky Grass Types in the form of Bayleef and Lileep. Each easily come into Rhyhorn's STABs and threaten an OHKO with their Grass STAB. However, they do greatly fear Megahorn.

Cubone is another nasty MU, as it isn't OHKOed by anything and threatens a KO back with Bonemerang. Finally Rhyhorn is checked by many Special Attackers in the tier. While they can't come in safely, the likes of Chinchou, Elekid, Growlithe, and many more obliterate Rhyhorn if it's not behind a Sub.

However, many of its greatest enemies are also its greatest partners. Special Attacker such as Chinchou also love its ability to handle Special Walls, while they break through the Phsyical Walls it gets annoyed by. The Grasses also make good partners, as they appreicate Rhyhorn's ability to deal with Poisons, while they deal with opposing Rock, Ground and Water Types.

And we're not done with sets. Rhyhorn has one more to work with.

While I believe Sub is the superior set for easing perdiction, CB is nothing to sneeze at. With its sheer power, its even harder to switch into, though its reliant on perdiction. More importantly, using CB Rhyhorn means you're not using Sub Rhyhorn, which to be honest is a huge downside.

Despite going in depth on Rhyhorn's faillings, with Rhyhorn countering the dominant stratagy in ADV ZU, and being a great Pokemon in its own right, justifies S Rank. In virtually every battle I have seen it in, either for or against me, it has proven itself as an exceptional threat on both sides. It's just so absurdly dangerous even with it's flaws. It is a top-tier ADV ZU Pokemon, and a genuine contender for the best.

B Rank -> A Rank

Lileep has cemented itself as a top tier wall, possibly the definitive wall of ADV ZU. I went on about how amazing Rhyhorn's offensive utility was in checking the various Normals of the tier, but Lileep's sheer defensive power arguably makes up for that. Its massive bulk along with great defensive typing grant it the ability to counter a massive amount of Pokemon in the tier, most notably the Normals, but unlike Rhyhorn it also beats back the plethora of Special Attackers in the tier.

While it's no one crinoid army, it does have very favorable MUs against the variety of Special Attackers listed here. While Rhyhorn needs to hide behind a Sub to have a chance against these threats, Lileep can switch into and beat these threats 1v1. And Lileep remains a fantastic check and counter to most of these Physical Attackers, stonewalling the majority of Normal Spammers and checking the dangerous Grounds of Rhyhorn and Cubone. As a wall Lileep handles so much of the offensive Meta it almost single handedly makes defense easy despite the sheer relative power of the Meta.

However, Lileep does have flaws that keep it as a worse Pokemon compared to Rhyhorn, at least in my opinion. If it can't hit something supereffectively, it is soley reliant on Toxic and Mirror Coat to do meaningful damage. Its greatest issue is its passivity, which causes it to have a very unfavorable MU vs Poison Types. While Rhyhorn can turn Grimer into complete set up fodder, and has a good MU vs. Dustox and Koffing, Lileep is stonewalled by them, and set up on in the case of Grimer. It also struggles against Sub users who it can't hit supereffectively, such as Natu. This is unlike Rhyhorn, who while struggles with more Pokemon, can usually cheese them with Substitute and Megahorn if they're forced in.

Lileep's passivity also spells bad news for it if it's Posioned. With the plethora of Toxics flying around, once it gets Toxiced it's often just a meat shield, as it is constantly forced to recover and thus is unable to use Toxic or Attack. This is also unlike Rhyhorn, who can Sub to guard against Toxic, and even if Poisoned it remains far from useless.

Where does this leave Lileep? Still a fantastic Wall, with flaws as any Pokemon would have. And it being "worse" than Rhyhorn isn't terrible when it preforms the essential role of checking the Special Attackers Rhyhorn struggles with. This makes them good partners oddly enough, as Rhyhorn can handle the Poison Types Lileep hates, while Lileep walls the dangerous Special Attackers Rhyhorn cannot come into. Overall if Rhyhorn is the Tank of ADV ZU, Lileep is the Wall.

C Rank -> B Rank

Despite its flaws Horsea has cemented itself as a powerful threat in the Meta. While it's absurdly frail, its ability to wreak havoc once Rain is up cannot be denied. While it'd simply be a gimmick since setting up Rain by itself is borderline impossible, it has the ultimate partner in crime in Seaking. The one-two punch of Horsea and Seaking is impossible to wall, and this isn't even going into Voltorb also being able to set up Rain for the pair as well. Without Seaking and Voltorb, Horsea would be nowhere, but with having such an exceptional partner and setter, it deserves to be ranked higher. However, its still not higher due to these aformentioned flaws and heavy reliance on team support to do its job. I'll get into Rain more in the Rain section.

Drops:

B Rank -> C Rank

Magnemite is usable, but hard to justify with better Normal resists in the Meta. Even with Sub it doesn't have the same threat level as Rhyhorn, nor does it have anything close to the Bulk of Lileep. This just leads to it having a bad mid ground betwee them. A Toxic Immunity is nice, but otherwise it's just outclassed by the two. And while its typing gives it a plethora of resistances, it also gives it bad weaknesses to a lot of common moves in the Meta.

As shown with these Calcs, while Mangemite has good bulk, common Metagame attacks do a ton of damage. Most notably it is KOed or nearly KOed by the Normal Spammer's coverage. While Rhyhorn and Lileep don't enjoy Aipom and Taillow's coverage, and Rhyhorn is hardly the holder of a great defensive typing, neither are usually KOed or chipped beyond repair by the Pokemon they're meant to check.

Excluding Aipom Focus Punch, Rhyhorn and Lileep are far from the edge of death here. In fact for many of these, Lileep can actually Recover and slowly beat down the oppodent.

Thus Magnemite is simply just not that great of a Pokemon, and isn't good enough to be B Rank. I feel C Rank is good enough for it as while it is a flawed Pokemon, it does have a few things over Rhyhorn and Lileep, namely a Toxic Immunity and good Coverage, and on a game-to-game basis usually does its job decently, though usually not as good as the former 2. A team using Magnemite must take advantage its few perks over Rhyhorn and Lileep, which makes it much harder to fit and thus far less viable.

Now, lets get onto weather

Rain/Seaking:

Thanks to Seaking, Rain is broken, theres just no other way to to spin it in my opinion. Under Rain, every single Pokemon in the tier is 2HKOed by the Fish, with the only exception I can find being Sp Def Chinchou, at least without significant Attack investment

Aside from this one set on this one Pokemon, who lacks reliable recovery and cannot OHKO Seaking, Seaking is unwallable in Rain. And unlike Horsea, who struggles with being OHKOed by almost anything it cannot OHKO in return, Seaking has fantastic Bulk for the tier, making it almost always require multiple Pokemon to bring down. Castform could try some weather shenanigans, but it remains tense.

These are our absolute best Special Walls, and they all fall or need to be unreasonably lucky. I personally believe Ice Beam is the superior Choice, as it doesn't cut into your Bulk, and you already destory 99% of the tier with your coverage. Beating SpDef Chinchou just isn't worth it when you have a ton of easy answers, such as many of the Pokemon I just listed.

Otherwise, Seaking can set up on almost the entire tier, and Outspeed in Rain and KO them.

This is hardly a full list of every offensive threat in the tier, but even uninvested Seaking can tank almost everything the tier can throw at it. Even Elekid is set up on.

The only other Pokemon worth mentioning is Sunflora, who can usually take a hit from Seaking, set up Sunny Day, and KO:

However, Sunflora is very niche, has to pray it's not running Megahorn, and is set up fodder for other threats in the tier. I'll get more into why later.

And this isn't even accounting for its partners. As I stated in my Horsea nom, Voltorb is very able to set up rain, thus letting Seaking start its shenanigans at full health. And Horsea itself makes a great partner, as it can easily pick up should Seaking falls. Horsea actually has a slightly higher Special Attack, but as far as I know this doesn't make any major MU difference. The duo have a stranglehold on teambuilding. Every team needs to have several Pokemon capable of taking a Rain-Boosted Hydro Pump just so they don't get mowed down by Rain. Even if we can stall out Rain once by sacking a good portion of our team, theres still the next Rain Abuser to pick up their slack.

The way I see it is that there are 2 options. ADV ZU could ban Rain as a whole but I feel that would be overkill. Rain isn't the issue, we see that from Horsea. Horsea is good, but dependant on support, and is easily OHKOed making it's sweeps easier to stop. It's Seaking's huge bulk for such a huge offensive threat in the tier that really makes Rain overpowered. Without it, once Voltorb falls Rain would be far harder to set up. But alas, Seaking is a fat fish, so we have to deal with it.

On the topic of a Seaking nom, I am unsure where to put it. Rain can decimate teams on its own, but I am unsure to what degree Seaking relies on Voltorb and Horsea. I'm saying -> to S for now, but that could change in the future.

Sun:

Sun is an interesting playstyle. On it's own, Sun can actually beat Seaking through Sunflora, unless Seaking invests in Megahorn, as I showed earlier. In general, our main Sun Sweepers would be Sunflora, Nuzleaf and Exeggcute. While not having Rain-levels of ease to set up, Onix can make Sun set up easy. Castform can act as both a setter and as a breaker in Sun. However, while this all sounds good on paper, Sun fundamentally in this metagame is very flawed and has serious obstacles to overcome if it wants to be on the same level as Rain.

Fire Types simply annoy Sun to no end. Growlithe and Cyndaquil easily take most Sun's Attacks, and retaliate with their own Boosted STABs. They can even set up with Agility and Sub vs Sun.

As shown, these Fire Types can tank all these Sun Attacks, and relatiate with their STABs. And swicthing out isn't an option. Very few Pokemon in this tier can take a Boosted Fire Blast more than once. Boom is an option, but it's very risky as you could end up wasting one of your Sun Sweepers, as it'd be a very perdictable play. So not only do you lose momentum and burn Sun Turns, you're also very likely also lose another Pokemon!

Another issue is with Grimer. Sunflora is turned into set up fodder by Grimer. Nuzleaf is forced to go boom as well. Exeggcute can 2HKO Grimer, but the fact of the matter is that Grimer forces the most essential Sun Abuser out, and wastes precious Sun Turns. And these Grass Types are hardly looking forward to coming into a Sludge Bomb.

Note however that Rhyhorn does turn Grimer into set up fodder, and even Onix can beat it, but this would be another obvious play that can be exploited, and again, you're wasting precious Sun Turns. However, despite all of this, Castform is the silver lining here, as aside from Flash Fire Growlithe, it can overpower many of Sun's most problematic oppodents.

Castform has it's issues, notably that it's not too hard to outspeed and KO, however it does crush Sun's few defensive checks.

All in all, Sun has it's problems, but it does have potential. It falls flat compared to Rain, as Seaking combines the speed of the Chlorophyll users and the Power of Castform. However, Sun's unique traits does give it a niche, and I'm sure theres an abundance of tech just waiting to be discovered that can solve Sun's current issues.

ADV ZU in it's current form is in an interesting state. We have powerful sweepers, but also powerful counterplay in return. It's only Rain, which in my opinion has too little counterplay, that I consider broken. Otherwise, I see a really healthy Meta with new strats just waiting to be discovered.

I'd like to know what everyone thinks of my thoughts, especially Rain and Seaking. Calling for a Ban is a big deal, so I'd like to know what the rest of the community thinks of it.

Thanks to everyone for reading my post, and I hope yall have a great day/night. Humilau Hakamo-os 4 ever.